Author Topic: Sale of Pealed Cacti Skins = ALL TRICHOCEREUS Sp. ILLEGAL  (Read 24837 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline flip

  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Sale of Pealed Cacti Skins = ALL TRICHOCEREUS Sp. ILLEGAL
« on: June 22, 2005, 08:32:52 PM »
I Know that there's some real good people on this forum
and I think that this is worth bringing up.


The subject has been mentioned on several other forums on the net (SAB, Lycaeum and others)
Regarding, the vender sale of pealed cacti and other processed cacti products
That are not only illegal in many nations under different assorted laws,
but also fueling the descruction of wild populations for short term $$$ gain. (K. trout)
If it continues, it'll be forcing the various drug agencies to act
and start enforcement of the laws of schedualed substances.


Live Cacti Cuttings and Seeds have legit uses
(thats why they're legal to currently buy and grow)
where as, peeled cacti are devoid of any such protection
they are being offered solely as a carrier of what is a highly illegal chemical
in a easy to use prepared form.

Cacti Peelings have been seized by US Customs (nook)
if this continues,
The assorted governments will not only ban such products
but extend enforcement of the laws to cover the entire genus of cacti.
In that case all the Trechocereus will be outlawed!
 
The illegalization of all such cacti species
That means no more gardens for anyone.
Please Think about this....

I've been advocating that such vendors be contacted
by as many people as possaible to let them know that they're
listing of peeled skins and other prepared products
is going to force you take your business elsewhere.

IF they lose money in a boycot  for as long as they're offering cacti skins
we'll be doing something to control a situation
that shouldn't have started in the first place.

There are quite a few vendors that have quickly saw the light and pulled
all such products off their pages
This does not apply to cacti seed and live cuttings

I'm asking that we start a discussion and start talking to such online vendors
and let them know the situation and to spread the word.

In short, what were talking about is:
 
  • Peeled cacti are illegal as dried mushrooms in baggies
  • The dried cacti have no legit uses
  • The sale of peeled cacti and extracts is dangerous for the individual that orders and for the cacti themselves (removal of wild populations).
  • Dried cacti sales will force the DEA (and other nations) to take action
  • Such legal action will also include the illegalizing of the entire Trechocereus Genus.
  • No more easy and safe cacti for anyone in the future
    (they're not like pot or fungus)


Thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by flip »
\"Convenience is the enemy...\"

Offline CJ

  • *
  • Posts: 176
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2005, 11:41:10 PM »
Well,you know Flip( I`ve talked to you on another forum) what you say, does have merit. Yet,there is something in this whole approach that I have askance with,and perhaps why I havn`t been at a cirtain place much,though other mundane problems have arisen.

     You come here and already have a flag waving on a particular position.In my mind,it`s not that you are wrong,but for you it seems, the decision of right and wrong has already been determined,and therefore ppl. are to follow a cirtain course,ie,the only one that is right,and so on. I feel by the tone of your whole thread,if one doesn`t follow this course,than automatically one is branded as selfish and uncool and ...a cluebie? It was that very negativity that I have given a rest,as well as being so cirtain of a position that debate doesnt really matter,though,in fairness, You do ask for thoughts.

     Well heres one,nobody has been discussing this aspect of the matter here,it seems. There is more to that then may be on the surface. Perhaps there may be more than one way to deal w/ a problem ,then opening a crusade over it,or should I say,a can of worms?

What`s amusing to me, is generally all I will discuss is growing and care,and have been very conservative about some matters, on this and perhaps related. Yet,determining how it should be for others,or being so hypocritical as to not acknowledging something that has benefieted me in the past,is outside my personal scope. But here we are again,It`s illegal,ppl are making money off of it,the unwashed are acquiring it and will screw it up,etc. Wow.. Who says history isn`t circular.

     Well,I may agree w/ you..or rather,by the time all the noise and hoopla gets up to full crescendo,and things become'very well known',if they wern`t before,there jus` may be little choice...the tongue dippers will have heard of it(finally) and figuered out a new and novel way to complete their destiny. All I know is,a cirtain view has been in my vision for a long time,and there hasn`t been much conundrum about it. but as the noise esculates,so will the justifications,tied to the hip,so to speak.

Okay,but for me,the drum is staying home. And a sense of sadness over what on the surface seems true will prevail,cause we wern`t big enough to keep things in our own world,So we aquiesse to the notions of legality in a world where we turn around and chafe under it`s restrictions.

      However, mistreating anything will have consquences. And one would be appalled to lose ones little garden..again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by CJ »

Offline flip

  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2005, 12:40:59 AM »
Quote
Well heres one,nobody has been discussing this aspect of the matter here,it seems. There is more to that then may be on the surface. Perhaps there may be more than one way to deal w/ a problem ,then opening a crusade over it,or should I say,a can of worms?


Agreed, and I'm sorry for my tone... if that offends.
I'm not trying to barge onto every forum I can to blabber away...
I believe that would only cause more problems and be actually destructive.
I spent some time thinking about this.

I know that others have gone about things their own way.
Mine is not the only way to do things.
I'm just feeling that there is a real chance to keep things safe(er).
on many levels... not to mention keeping people from breaking the law.
and this is my approach... perhaps I'm being a bit more of the "stick" vs the "carrot" (if thats even applicable)
but I've been reading some frightening things from the "tongue dippers" as you say...
and I can see it coming...
there's much that I haven't said
and I've been weighing my posts..
I just don't want any sort of harm done.
and that peeled cacti isn't required by anyone
but it carries unacceptable risks.

I just honestly believe that trying to do something
is much better than doing nothing and letting others
recklessness take charge.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by flip »
\"Convenience is the enemy...\"

Offline rhodopsin

  • *
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
Re: cacti dried
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2005, 01:33:56 AM »
...
« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 11:29:39 AM by rhodopsin »

Offline Green2Herman

  • *
  • Posts: 158
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2005, 05:53:47 AM »
In Sweden cactii isnt illegal but anything that show that you will eat it is illegal any processed form.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Green2Herman »

Offline EA-1306

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2005, 04:30:46 PM »
I think it is a serious concern with an undeniable risk.
I think it is not so much policing as advising to prevent policing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by EA-1306 »
Never speak your mind nor hide your thoughts.

Offline senorsalvia

  • *
  • Posts: 1195
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2005, 05:39:14 PM »
Well spoken EA------------  senorsal
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by senorsalvia »
Cognitive Liberty:  Think About It!!

Offline laughingwillow

  • *
  • Posts: 2824
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2005, 05:48:35 PM »
Most of the real concern and risk is due to the legal status of the substance in question, imo.

And this box isn't going to close back up just because a few peeps now fear the exponential repercussions of what they helped unleash.

The only real issue I see here is the potential of unethical harvesting caused by increased demand. Even then, unless folks are pulling the plants up by the roots, new growth should develop on most of the harvested plants.

The policing is here already, btw, and there in lies the real source of this problem, imo.

lw
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by laughingwillow »
Lost my boots in transit, babe,
smokin\' pile of leather.
Nailed a retread to my feet
and prayed for better weather...

Offline EA-1306

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2005, 06:42:56 PM »
Some Trichocereus experts have expressed a concern that pressures from the governments may promote eradication efforts if the use of the dried material increases. Some varieties of the plant are considered a nuisance already, and others have been singled out in the past as a drug source and sprayed along with coca.  

The legality is the problem for sure, but it seems we have a chance to hinder the process by not condoning the international shipment of the dried prepared material, despite the obvious fact that there are some ethical harvesting and cultivation efforts ongoing in the Andes.

Seed sources and cutting sources of superior material have been available for some time now, there seems to be no need for the importation of the dried material.

While the legality is the major problem, it is the aspect that we have the least amount of control over. We can therefore avoid attracting more attention by not ordering the prepared material.

For growers like myself who have an interest in these plants as objects of beauty and as allies, this is a nightmarish situation where non-illicit behavior such as collection, cultivation and private preservation stand to be criminalized. If it comes down to the decision of an officer saying "in my opinion they would have eaten them" then many people who never would have eaten the cacti become criminals in the eye of the law.
 
I do not want to let this happen without at least having said something. We all have our own choices to make. I have made my choice, and it is to share my concerns with the hope that they can help make a difference.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by EA-1306 »
Never speak your mind nor hide your thoughts.

Offline laughingwillow

  • *
  • Posts: 2824
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2005, 07:30:51 PM »
I guess I just have a tough time buying into this line of thought from the trichocereus experts out there. For example I seem to remember something about Shulgin working on a book covering the active properties of cactus. And I've read reports that the DEA is fond of working up drug cases from material gleaned from their signed copies of Shulgin's work. But is anyone approaching him and requesting that the info remain on the down-low? Or bothering MS Smith for letting the cat of the bag concerning the specific activity of different species of trichos? Or how about sweating Murple for going down to south america and romantisizing the notion of collecting active cactus from the source? Most of the experts with whom I am familiar are just as liable for any change in legal status of these plants as those guilty of importing dry cactus flesh, imo. At least following the above line of reasoning.

The law is the only real issue, imo.

lw
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by laughingwillow »
Lost my boots in transit, babe,
smokin\' pile of leather.
Nailed a retread to my feet
and prayed for better weather...

Offline EA-1306

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2005, 08:22:55 PM »
You have a good point.

I know Mike is a bit enraged over the possibility.
Here is what he had to say about it
Quote
I am saddened that many of the plants which I collect for their beauty may fall under future legislation. When that happens I will no longer share either my photos or my plants and many fellow collectors will be unhappy. And we will all know who is to blame...those who are looking for a high rather than a purpose.


 For some to be so careful and also express concern over this sale of dried material means something to me.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2005, 04:14:23 PM by EA-1306 »
Never speak your mind nor hide your thoughts.

Offline space

  • *
  • Posts: 230
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2005, 08:35:39 PM »
Quote
The law is the only real issue, imo.


Agreed.

I've seen this debate many times over many allies.  Often the appeal to "moderate" behavior reminds me of Talkin' Birmingham Blues:  

"Don't push 'em!  Don't push 'em!
Else we'll get those extremists back in..."

...and of course the 'nonextremists' were using fire hoses and attack dogs on civil rights marchers.

I do respect both points of view, but the forces of repression will act against cognitive liberty whatever we or vendors do.  Discreet behavior and speech in a forum makes sense to protect a forum and it's constituents, but pushing the envelope of knowledge and access only affects the repressors' timing, not their intent.  Trading in dried cacti skins may move the species up the hit list, but it isn't what puts the species on that list.  

Space Law, Article XIII, para. iii:  

You cannot mollify an absolutist with what seems to you to be moderate behavior.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by space »
\"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.\"

Offline EA-1306

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2005, 08:45:47 PM »
Do we not have a chance to make a difference by acting conscientiously?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by EA-1306 »
Never speak your mind nor hide your thoughts.

Offline space

  • *
  • Posts: 230
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2005, 09:23:12 PM »
IMO, it boils down to what you mean by "acting conscientiously."

A person can say things are being ruined by those who seek a high rather than a purpose:  another person might say that THE purpose of our existence is the exhiliration and joy that first person calls a high.  Does that mean the first party is correct to say the second has failed to act conscientiously?  The individual conscience is a sovereign state.

The beauty of cacti does not require a collector, but a collector who is passionate about the beauty of these life forms and truly scorns their acquisition for a "high" has nothing to worry about, even under the more draconian proposed laws, correct?  If that is merely legally protective window dressing, I just say, Good Luck.

Again using the civil rights movement as an example, could you not say that the struggle against racist Jim Crow segregation in the south was a failure to act conscientiously, since it provoked many lynchings and other assaults?  That position would have seemed moderate and reasonable for quite a few years--until the struggle was successful.

A vendor may feel that providing cacti skins is an act of defiant cognitive liberty:  we all work for money, and the more fortunate among us earn that money by doing something we love, enjoy, and believe in...could that not also be said of a vendor in this context?

If two people know something, it is not a secret:  that is a truth as old as our kind.  If you want to share a community that shares knowledge about plant allies, you have put yourself under the boot.  If you want to protect esoteric allies, don't go public.

I do sympathize with the distressed point of view, but I don't believe in blaming the victims of repression.    Cacti were "of interest" long before anyone sold dried skins.  Personally, I wouldn't order any, but that is not a matter of conscience to me.  I can greatly respect those for whom it is with integrity and consistency.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by space »
\"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.\"

Offline EA-1306

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2005, 11:04:12 PM »
However this is not segregation, this is preservation. We are trying to protect against more "Jim crow" type laws being passed, not by telling people to stop segregating, but asking them not to flaunt it in an unnecessary way we know will cause our obnoxious big brother to seek to stop it.

Ordering dried cacti lacks the strength and symbolism of organized protest, it is more like a going to a KKK meeting in the middle of the dark woods and protesting racism by yourself. It is not some intelligent and organized protest of injustice.

The type of behavior now being encouraged is known as protective coloration. People can enjoy, but saying "screw it" and helping to create an environment where more good people go to jail for bad reasons just doesn't seem wise.

Cactus can be can enjoyed, but in the face of this type of oppression people should not seek to make martyrs of us all by pursing behavior that will result in the loss of more freedom.

If ordering dried cactus was akin to an organized intelligent protest there would be no problem.

That what is happening is unjust is not being questioned, however sometimes in order to survive oppression, people have to move underground lest their practices and culture be completely destroyed.  

It is not hiding out of fear, it is camouflaging out of wisdom.

Some people have worked very hard to be able to enjoy, and let others enjoy as well without fear of being singled out and persecuted, people ordering the dried cacti cannot appreciate the efforts of individuals who have gone to great lengths to make these cacti and information about them available in an intelligent and cautious manner.

Ordering dried cactus is not the only recourse for the procurement of quality cacti, however it is the most risky recourse and the most likely to have negative repercussions not for the individual, but for us all.

I think we can make a difference, and that we are not asking people to give things up, rather we are asking them to go about them in safer ways, due to the current fragility of the political state. It is unfortunate, however we can proceed with caution instead of flaunting it all in a way that will only further the loss of freedom.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by EA-1306 »
Never speak your mind nor hide your thoughts.