Author Topic: The Mortgage fraud & more  (Read 33539 times)

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Offline Bushpig

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2011, 07:22:42 AM »
The youtube video works for me, perhaps you need to login for it?

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I'm sure there are lots of things i dont know about banking. I rather doubt there are any earth shaking secrets out there, not likely in a u tube video.


I think you're in for a surprise then my friend.  In short the credit extended to alleged borrowers does not come from the deposits of other lenders.  The fractional reserve banking system allows banks to extend credit based upon a ratio held in reserve.  Essentially it appears that banks 'create' money out of thin air though this would be a half truth. What they seem to be doing is accepting promissory notes (a form of negotiable instrument) from alleged borrowers, depositing them as something of value and extending credit.  (At this stage the exchange of note for credit would be a fair deal ... as opposed to asking for it all back again + interest)

What we need to understand is that in a world where money is no longer backed by gold, the promise to pay is the payment.  Just look at the fact our bank notes effect payment and they are nothing but promissory notes made payable to bearer on demand.  When gold no longer backs the money what can you actually pay a promissory note with ?

"We have repeatedly said in this court that a bill of exchange or a promissory note is to be treated as cash. It is to be honoured unless there is some good reason to the contrary"
(see per Lord Denning M.R. in Fielding & Platt Ltd v Selim Najjar
[1969] 1 W.L.R. 357 at 361; [1969] 2 All E.R. 150 at 152, CA)
 

Banks do not have money to lend you, they fraudulently misrepresent the transaction and fraudulently fail to omit to us the nature of the source of the loan, which is completely created by ourselves when we sign the document and create the promissory note.


I have been involved in litigation and the litigation of others on this subject over the last few years.  Multiple requests to the banks and applications to the courts have been made for the disclosure of the accounting of the banks losses with regard to the loans made.  The banks refuse, the courts also refuse despite specific statutory provisions compelling them to grant said orders.  Ask yourself the question, if the banks wanted to stop this argument in its tracks and not suffer continued litigation on the matter would they not allow the inspection of their books ?

Please throw any questions you have,

Booosh


For further information you may benefit from watching this one:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936


(get your snacks at the ready its a monster)

« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 07:27:09 AM by Bushpig »

Offline Stonehenge

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2011, 06:06:27 PM »
Yes, we all know about fractional reserve banking. But only the central banks are allowed to do this. The thing is that actual money is paid when you buy a home. The seller gets cash and he does not care where it came from. I dont see where fractional reserve banking has anything to do with a home sale or how it makes it fraudulent.

The federal reserve is a fraud but thats another subject altogether. I would not be surprised if the world economy went into collapse sometime soon.
Stoney

Offline Bushpig

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2012, 10:00:01 AM »
Fractional reserve banking applies to commercial banks.  Check out:

http://www.rayservers.com/images/ModernMoneyMechanics.pdf

Boooshpig
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 11:12:34 AM by Bushpig »

Offline Stonehenge

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2012, 12:32:52 PM »
Another link that doesn't work. Here is wikipedia's definition of fractional reserve banking

Fractional-reserve banking is a form of banking where banks maintain reserves (of cash and coin or deposits at the central bank) that are only a fraction of the customer's deposits. Funds deposited into a bank are mostly lent out, and a bank keeps only a fraction (called the reserve ratio) of the quantity of deposits as reserves

I still do not see any fraud that you speak of. A mortgage involves real money paid to the seller of a property. Is your beef with the central banks or is the fact that mortgages are treated as assets it?
Stoney

Offline Bushpig

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2012, 02:50:37 PM »
Link edited Stoney.

Once you are familiar with money creation principles we can get back on topic to the mortgage fraud.  But for the avoidance of doubt let me say it again BANKS MONETISE YOUR PROMISE TO PAY, IT DOES NOT COME FROM OTHER BORROWERS DEPOSITS, JUST YOUR OWN DEPOSIT OF A PROMISSORY NOTE WHEN YOU APPLY FOR THE LOAN, THE MONEY DOES NOT EXIST UNTIL YOU CREATE IT BY APPLYING FOR IT.

From the Bank of England:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/quarterlybulletin/qb0801.pdf

...banks extend credit by simply increasing the borrowing customer’s current account, which can be paid away to wherever the borrower wants by the bank ‘writing a cheque on itself’. That is, banks extend credit by creating money."

Page 105 on the pdf

Also check out the TOP SECRET BANKERS MANUAL

http://www.4shared.com/office/I1ZjfMsE/Vol_3_-_Top_Secret_Bankers_Man.html

You now have 3 awesome resources for re educating yourself on the money creation process, good luck !

Boooshpig
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 06:08:26 PM by Bushpig »

Offline Stonehenge

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2012, 11:48:46 AM »
So you are saying the banks don't have the money they lend? When the seller cashes his check, he gets real money not thin air. I see how you are bringing in the fed reserve and the equivalent in england. The corner bank is not the fed and can not lend more than it has on hand. In fact, they are required to keep a percentage of their deposits on hand. They are not allowed to lend it all out. Bank examiners will shut them down if they try it and many have been shut down for insufficient deposits.

 They can sell a mortgage and in that respect, monetize a debt. But another bank or investor has to pay actual money for that mortgage believing they will collect it in full with interest. Perhaps what you speak of is more to do with england? In this country they are not allowed to do that. What you are alluding to sounds more like bank fraud not mortgage fraud.

Stoney

Offline Bushpig

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2012, 01:17:06 PM »
Hey Stoney, well done for sticking with me on this one.  We'll get there! 

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So you are saying the banks don't have the money they lend?

Correct.  Until you ask for it, it's not there.  See the above bank of England bulletin statement as evidence. 

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When the seller cashes his check, he gets real money not thin air.


Yish.  Only a very tiny percentage of the money in circulation is hard physical currency, the rest is in fact credit created by the banks in the form of loans.  It is created as debt, not credit.

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The corner bank is not the fed and can not lend more than it has on hand. In fact, they are required to keep a percentage of their deposits on hand. They are not allowed to lend it all out.

When you say 'corner' do you just mean your average high street bank as opposed to a central bank ?  These high street banks as a matter of course, as part of the daily business of banking are continually creating loans/debt, which are NOT backed by money they have.  It is not that the bank has $100 of actual deposits so can lend out $90 and has to keep $10 but that they for example have $100 in reserve so can create $900 in loans seemingly 'out of thin air'.  The following link documents this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm3DixfL9o0   (if not youtube 'modern money mechanics zeitgeist' and you will find it)

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They can sell a mortgage and in that respect, monetize a debt. But another bank or investor has to pay actual money for that mortgage believing they will collect it in full with interest.

The investors are getting conned also.  This subject is vast and its not necessary at this juncture to go into it.  Fact is the investors are purchasing fraudulent products, in many regards.

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Perhaps what you speak of is more to do with england? In this country they are not allowed to do that.

Nope, you will find this is the global monetary system.

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What you are alluding to sounds more like bank fraud not mortgage fraud.

Both my friend, both.  The entire monetary system is completely fraudulent.  Mortgages, loans, credit cards, the lot. 

Boooshpig



Offline Stonehenge

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2012, 01:55:44 PM »
When you mix everything together like that it makes it suspect. The english system is not run the same as usa. I know for a fact that our banks have to have enough deposits to cover loans and possible losses. I read all the time how banks and s+l's are shut down for insolvency. If they could create $10 for each actual dollar they have, they would get away with much more. A utube video is not going to convince me otherwise and i don't want to read a book in hopes of finding something solid.

Our banks get put on a credit watch for having a low level of reserves or have their ratings lowered. A solid bank has much more in reserve than just loans. I agree loans are shown as assets on the books. This may be what you are talking about. If i was owed money on a property, i would consider it an asset too. In that case the property would be the security. Unsecured loans are another matter. If banks have too many of those and cant cover in case of losses, they have to come up with more capital or be shut down and sold to another bank with more cash.

The original loan is made with cash. That loan is then put on the books as an asset, which it is. During the subprime meltdown, property values dropped, people quit paying and the assets became liabilities. Bank regulators swooped in and made them come up with more cash to cover or the bank was sold or in some cases shut down and depositors were paid out of federal funds.

Banks can sell a mortgage or borrow on it. This does give the appearance of creating money out of thin air but it is backed by the property which underlies it. If i owe you $100k on a property which you loaned the money to buy, don't you still have the value of the money in the form of the debt backed by the real estate? I think you would say you have a solid asset and have not created anything out of thin air at all. Mortgage fraud relates to overvaluing a property and often creating straw buyers who have no intention of paying the loan back. The loan then defaults and the lender is stuck.
Stoney

Offline Bushpig

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2012, 05:01:00 PM »
Stonehenge, you're wrong, just read or check some of the material I have presented.  Surely to verify my statements you need to do the research? 

Whilst the below link is painful to watch and very slow, check out a forensic examiner take you through some of the mortgage fraud (and its american).  It's 3 hours long, but perhaps wortth it.  More importantly read the modern money mechanics pdf as it is written by the fed, there is also a youtube video on a guy leading you through  the modern money mechanics document that adds some commentary to it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBI5lV2M4OM


Boooshpig

Offline Stonehenge

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2012, 04:02:57 PM »
A 3 hour utube? OMG! There are ways to commit fraud but let me tell you how things are done this side of the pond. A bank has $100m in capital, lets say. They can lend out to a max of perhaps 90m and keep 10% or whatever the govt says in reserve. OK, they lend the whole 90% and then some of the loans go sour and must be written off the books. Bank examiner comes in, tells them they are below required reserve levels and must bring in more capital within a certain amount of time. They get put on a lower rating for those who check those things. If the bank's reserves drop below 0 and the bank can not cover deposits, it will have a short time to come up with the money or they get shut down.

When a bank lends a mortgage, they can turn around and sell it thereby getting money for a second mortgage which in turn can be sold. That may be where you are thinking they turn $1 into $10. Not really because its paid off each time with real cash.
Stoney

Offline Bushpig

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2012, 06:33:55 PM »
With all due respect Stonehenge, it is apparent you have not studied the information I have presented.  In particular your above comment would not be made should you have studied the document I linked entitled 'Modern Money Mechanics', of which I humbly present video commentary of below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rdZYIW1zRY&feature=related 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr1Ceba0liw&context=C30dd599UDOEgsToPDskK7oCvd3iNnyzhonWOnsSQz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPKtEKk7xzQ&feature=related

The above explains the money expansion process, as detailed in MMM.  I trust you will pay this due diligence.

Boooshpig

« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 06:42:16 PM by Bushpig »

Offline Stonehenge

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2012, 07:32:29 PM »
OK bushy, i went and watched it. 30 minutes i can tolerate but not 3 hours of beating around the bush. He had a point but it is not really creating money out of thin air.

First of all, the govt gets money by borrowing it. It has printed money with no backing before and this was called quantitative easing. They don't do that as a regular practice. They borrow and have to pay back.

The rest is just the way money passes from hand to hand. $1 can pass through many hands and simulate the economy many times more than $1 sitting in a vault.

What has happened is people are borrowing money from a bank and spending it and the bank they put it in loans part of it out. Just like i told you before. But at each stage the loan is backed by the credit of the individual. In mortgages, the loan is backed also by property. The problem is when the unsecured borrowers can't pay back and the whole system collapses. Or when the value of the property falls and they can't pay it back.

The money supply increases because the money is going from hand to hand same as if no loan were involved. Where is the fraud you spoke of?
Stoney

Offline Bushpig

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2012, 04:37:09 AM »
Well done on studying but your conclusions however do not follow the material presented.  I advise some revision.

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The money supply increases because the money is going from hand to hand same as if no loan were involved. Where is the fraud you spoke of?
  This is incorrect:

Firstly you should now be aware that there is an increase in the money supply, not just through central banks (in fact only minimally) but instead through the creation of credit to so called borrowers.  This is the deposit expansion term that is used in the document.  Please refer back to the Bank of England statement also.  You need to understand that the money supply through loans multiples many times over.  The bank as you will now have learned does not have these funds available before the 'borrower' approaches the bank.  The credit is created as a book keeping entries to balance the promissory note (loan agreement) that they received from the alleged borrower.  On the books it is a swap, note for credit except the bank asks for it all back again, plus interest.  It is also to my knowledge against GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles)

Now, in a contract both parties must provide 'consideration', that is something of value must be brought to the table.

The bank has nothing until you give it to them.  They are then able to charge interest and the entire principle of the loan back, of which was entirely created by the alleged borrower.

The fraud ....

Now is the time to go back and listen to the original link that I posted at the beginning of this thread (highly recommended)  I post it again blow for convenience:

http://www.lawfulrebellion.org/2011/09/14/the-great-mortgage-illusion/

Basically fraud takes a number of forms, misrepresentation, omission of significant facts, abuse of position.

Firstly the bank do not tell you how the transaction works, almost everybody has the false belief that the bank has some money they can lend you, your own comments in this thread are testament to this.  You enter the contract based on this, fraud by misrepresentation/omission of significant facts.  You do not know that YOU are the creator of the credit in the system and that without you the bank has nothing.

As for the mortgage deed, well it gets even stickier.  How can you provide security for a loan by way of charge on the property when at that stage you do not even own it?  How can you give what you do not have?

Ask yourself firstly, WHY do governments borrow money from a central bank at interest instead of creating it themselves not at interest?

Then ask yourself WHY we allow a small minority of individuals (Bankers) to create credit out of thin air, then ask for it all back again plus interest? 

Is this system set up to best facilitate the trade endeavors of the people?  Or is it instead a fantastic method for stealing the wealth of nations ?  When interest is applied, the money to pay it off is not.  It's like musical chairs, when the music stops someone loses out.  It aint the bankers. 

In a system of fiat currency the promise to pay is the payment.  Hard to believe ?  What else can you now pay with ?  Your bank notes are promises to pay the bearer on demand.  You can write your own promises to pay.  If the loan was funded by that specie of money, is it not the fact that it can be repaid that way ? Try getting your bank to accept a promise to pay to clear your mortgage ... they don't like it.  But hey, refer yourself to the Lord Denning case law already presented.

Boooshpig


« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 04:44:50 AM by Bushpig »

Offline Bushpig

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2012, 10:02:04 AM »
For your consideration Stony (and all others I would encourage to read this).  Expert witness/Affidavit on the very subject. 

Boooshpig



Offline Stonehenge

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Re: The Mortgage fraud & more
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2012, 06:50:08 PM »
What you and the video are talking about is simply creating an economy, not creating money from nothing. Lets say person #1 has a dollar and buys from person 2 who spends it with person 3 down to person 10 who then spends it with person 1. $10 dollars has changed hands, did someone pull a fast one and create money out of thin air? No, this is the normal multiplying effect of cash in the economy.

Lets say person 1 loans a dollar to 2 who loans it to 3 etc and 10 loans it back to 1. Now $10 has been loaned even though only $1 actually exists. Is it fraud? No, its just commerce. Each of them borrowed a dollar, owes a dollar and someone owes them a dollar. So they are all even just like the banks in your example. Nothing was created out of thin air and no fraud exists.

>The bank has nothing until you give it to them.  They are then able to charge interest and the entire principle of the loan back, of which was entirely created by the alleged borrower.

The bank receives money from a depositor and then lends it out to a borrower. The borrower can then lend it out again or deposit it and the bank lends it out. Its just like my example of $1 changing hands many times.

>As for the mortgage deed, well it gets even stickier.  How can you provide security for a loan by way of charge on the property when at that stage you do not even own it?  How can you give what you do not have?

The bank pays the money to the seller and takes a lien on the property. What is so complicated about that? The buyer is the nominal owner but the bank has a claim in the amount owed. The buyer gives up the lien because that is the only way to get the loan.

>Ask yourself firstly, WHY do governments borrow money from a central bank at interest instead of creating it themselves not at interest?

They do borrow at interest. USA owes some $15t at interest. If they could truly create money out of thin air as you seem to believe, they would do that and not borrow at all. I hope this clears it up but if you have more questions i'll try to answer them too.
Stoney