Interesting.... I like that exercise.

You have focused on set vs biochemical above, but I'm not sure those are the only two factors to consider in this conversation. I believe its possible to have deeply spiritual experiences while under the influence of the sacrament without going into the event primed for that possibility. For me, listening to the spirit has become key.

lw

Speaking of listening.....

For me, song lyrics have been the catalyst that sends me deeper into a trip. The music itself has acted as a PHYSICAL tool for forging psychological connections. And most lessons have flowed through that medium without the verbal assistance of any teacher in the traditional sense.

Btw, I've come to consider visual stimulus while under the influence of a sacrament to be counterproductive to the exercise above.

On the other hand, I could watch a flowing river for hours while under the influence......

lw

Me too. Certain ones seem to reverberate for ever. "Did it matter does it now........" "Clothed in tatters always will be time where did you go"

"The deeper you go the higher you fly, the higher you fly the deeper you go, so come on. Your inside is out when your outside is in, you r outside is in when your inside is out so come on"

Dylan has a lot of lines that throw a shiver down me spine. Delivery has something to do with it as well. And for some reason, many times I feel I'm gleaning a certain type of knowledge from a dead related show, that very instant, there will be a roar of approval from the crowd as if I'm being welcomed to that page in general and and thought in particular...

There must be some
way out of here
cried the joker
to the thief....

lw

and my favorite.....

We might be stuck here
- forever -
if you can't make that turn....

lw

this one got me once...


I have seen where the wolf has slept by the silver stream.
I can tell by the mark he left you were in his dream.
Ah, child of countless trees.
Ah, child of boundless seas.
What you are, what you're meant to be
Speaks his name, though you were born to me,
Born to me,
Cassidy...

So, I'm not sure there is a particular path that can be called spiritual or moral. But I do think we can gain spiritual insight and practice a lifestyle that could be called "moral" along our individual journey.

And while there are as many paths as pairs of sandals to the promised land, as jrl said, I'm also a practicing psychedelian so my views will have that skew..

lw

So, I was just doing dishes and came to a realization....

Many of the A-ha! moments at shows for me have occurred in the context of reincarnation.

lw

Indeed. Reincarnation as linear fact or metaphore?

Well, what started out as metaphor soon became linear conjecture....

And that particular notion just BAKED my noodle on more than one occasion.

That said, there were no specific "memories" if you will, of past incarnations. Rather vague recollections dredged up by the music, lyrics and sacrament that at times has hit me hard enough to provide quite a jolt.

However, on at least one occasion I found the lyrics of a show to be the catalyst sending me over the cosmic edge. (It was a David Lindley set in 1988 when he was opening for the dead at laguna seca.) Due to the intense nature of that particular sacramental day, I was short on details until I scored a copy of the set a few years back. Upon further scrutiny, it makes more sense to me now, but I believe it is the unexpected jolt that might be just what we need for some deep space exploration expeditions.

lw

Same here, I have had vague memory type stuff, like seeing me and my former archnemesis as rival Merlinesqe wizaeds, or seeing a western bar room brawl during Me and My Uncle. Or Siamese dancers during Born Cross Eyed.

You ever hear Procul Harum's second record, Shine On Brightly? Side one(remember sides?) is an epic called In Held Twas In I, and its a full of cryptic Zen lines of great power.

Words are powerful, while its true that the Tao can't be expressed by word or whistled, words and/or music can point you right at it. some good words of power are found in Leary's Tao Te Ching adaptation, Psychedelic Prayers. Pushed me right to the cosmic connection more than once. Rumi, too.

bush: Thanks for starting the thread that let us go deep into jrl's head, bro.

The most intense experiences for me have all come at moments that I feel my psychedelic past is being shown to me as innuendo. Always vague. Always dealing with the dead scene. At times I feel like I'm the odd man out and that the rest of the audience is privy to the cosmic joke that I'm viewing as a lesson.

We often talk about keeping ego's in check and the above method of transferring knowledge or methods of cosmic communication is pretty effective in that regard, imo.

lw

"At times I feel like I'm the odd man out and that the rest of the audience is privy to the cosmic joke that I'm viewing as a lesson"

Well In Held Twas In I has a part about tea time at the circus: "Althougb the crowd clapped furiously they could not see the joke"

I wonder what percentage feels that when you are feeling it. I know I have many times, I've gotten stuck there, carried it around with me seems like forever.

But when "I" am confronted with the infinity that is "us" "my" limitations are become clear..

ahimsa...

Ooh, thanks, gnermy. A quick google and we're on the same page...

I, too, see the value and even equality in most life forms. But its tough to decide just how far to take the non-violence thing. I lived a vegetarian lifestyle back in the day. And the only insects I'll kill consciously are mosquitos.

But in this world, life consumes life for energy. And billions of insects are killed every day by the simple act of walking to the river or the store. Even drinking the most natural water or the process of water purification certainly kills microscopic life forms in the name of human sustenance.

It pains me to kill most any plant. I don't even like to dispose of jade leaves that fall, knowing they all contain a tree within. All life is sacred, imo.

SO where do we draw the line?

lw